Lana Jokel: Larry, when did you meet Neil? Larry Bell: I believe that I first met Neil with Chamberlain. They drove to Los Angeles, I think it was in '61 or '62. 1 didn't know anything about Neil. He was just this guy that was very funny and we just hit it off. Neil told me that he hadn't sold a painting ever. That was when I realized that Neil was an artist also. He was doing some colored pencil drawings at the time. Lana Jokel: Do you know when he started to do the shaped canvas? Larry Bell: The first shaped canvases, that I recall, Neil did were shaped like the state of California. They were kind of long. The painting on them was sort of lozenge shape. They look like a bunch of "chicklets" that were placed on the surface. So, there were these strange shapes painted on these canvases that looked like the state of California that were then very, very gestural. Lana Jokel: What was he like as a friend? Larry Bell: He was still quite distant. I mean he was this guy who was very much socially interested in people and stuff. Neil was interested not so much in the art thing, but he liked interaction with other artists. He liked to talk about art, painting, philosophy and stuff like that. He read constantly, all kinds of philosophies and I was not into that at all. He used to get quite put out with me for being so stupid about everything. Lana Jokel: What did he say about art? Larry Bell: Honesty was his key thing. He was an extremely honest person and out front about things. And only rude when he got drunk. He believed either you had integrity or had none. I think he wanted to be recognized as an artist but he absolutely did not want to have anything to do with anybody who would recognize other than what art is. Lana Jokel: I guess he was always considered a rebel. Larry Bell: When he went to the San Francisco Art Institute, he was a legendary rabble-rouser and troublemaker and stuff like that. He had this reputation for being very tough. Of course, a lot of it had to do with just the way helooked. He was not a bad guy at all. But when he would get drunk he would get very hostile about things and very self-righteous about his austere lifestyle and his work, as compared to the whole scene, which had to do with making money and trying to get famous and all that kind of stuff. All the other artists were scrambling trying to make their scene. Neil sort of sat right there on everybody's shoulder as their conscience. There was no way that you could ignore this guy's presence nor not be affected by him. Part of your responsibility was to make sure that Neil could do his thing. It was just something that people did. Not out of anything other than love and generosity and, yeah, perhaps a little guilt and certainly respect for his integrity. Lana Jokel: What did these artists think of his work? Larry Bell: I think that everybody thought that he was just as good as anyone else who was painting; I mean as good as Poons and Stella and all of them. But, he wasn't a participant. Everybody was a little pissed that he was taking this aloof kind of attitude about it, but impressed that he could carry on doing it without scrambling around in the market. He had a way of making you feel irresponsible unless you were in some way supportive of his independence. Lana Jokel: What effect did he have on his peers? Larry Bell: He was very important to everybody's life. He was an incredible force that did not rate within the art system; somehow operated just outside it. Nobody ever really figured out quite how he did it. The truth was that he just did it with everybody's support.